TopShelf TG Fiction in the BigCloset!
On a morning on which I have almost no time, I'm faced with one of the heavy questions.
How much responsibility does the author have for the interpretation a reader gives a story?
I'll ponder this and look back in later to see if anyone else has anything to say on it.
None of my usual smilies,
Wanda
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Comments
Responsibility
The only responsibilities an author has to her readers is honesty. After that it is all technical (spelling,etc.)
I know that is not what you are looking for. I also read Danielle Leigh-Anne's comments this morning.
If your categories are correct; if you warned your readers about the content, if it might be disturbing; then other then telling a story that is well written you have met your obligations.
I will not subject myself to many stories and movies. If I am warned! If not, I don't continue with them if I find them objectionable. At any rate I don't blame the author for creating something that is objectionable to me.
Danielle is right, however. Far too many stories have a dark side to them. The trouble is (look at the news to see if I am right) 'bad things happen' sells. "Little house on the prairie" stories are not read. There has to be conflict. I just wish the one being beat up gets his or her revenge (oops more bad things).
Your stories are fairly benign. I have only read the first few chapters as I lost track of them. So much to read, so little time to read. I will have to read more to see what the "problem" is with them, if any.
At any rate, you have to write what Melpomene or Thalia bring you.
Keep on writing.
I agree with noisemaker
To a degree. I'm afraid I'm narrow-minded enough that I don't think certain stories should be written, such as tales extolling child molestation. That's the victim in me speaking, of course. But I do have the right not to read stories I don't like, so IF I'm reliably informed of the content, then I'll skip by.
I've also identified certain authors whose stories I've sampled have not been to my liking, and I avoid their material. This includes a new author as well as several established and respected ones. Not my cuppa joe, ya know. My choice.
The writer has the responsibility to accurately identify what their story deals with, if there isn't a catagory that's appropriate and they can't come up with something to fit into Erin's new "write your own" then a disclaimer at the top accurately describing what the reader will encounter is a good idea. The disclaimer for my story "Happiness and a Warm Gun" is an example.
After that it's the reader's responsibility to pick stories that fit what they want to read. As Erin has observed previously (and this isn't a quote): nobody has the right not to be offended. I speak from experience here, I've made a bad mistake or two commenting on stories. I was wrong, and I've apologized to the authors.
Beyond that, the writer writes what he or she has to say, and the reader reads what he or she wants to hear. There are plenty of stories on this site to allow for almost any taste in fiction a person may have, you may just have to search a little. Who knows what you might find? There's some gold in that thar closet!
Karen J.
"A dress makes no sense unless it inspires men to want to take it off you."
Francoise Sagan
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
stories that shouldn't be written
I both agree and disagree with you. To quote Voltaire, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Actually Voltaire didn't say that: Evelyn Beatrice Hall did. Oh well. (Wikiquote) The point is just as valid.
Real abusers no matter if they do it in the deepest secrecy or display it in child porn should be castrated and rot in hell. What scares me is if some perverted S.O.B. thinks that written porn is an instruction manual on how to do it for real, but should we burn "Lolita"?
I don't read stories where the child is too young, but I do enjoy stories where the child may be below the current age of consent. I don't read rape stories for any age or any story where there is excessive violence. Now gutting someone attempting to rape someone is an acceptable part of a story.
Once again, I still will defend the author's right to write and publish even when their stories make me want to vomit.
That's why!
That's why there is a disclaimer! To give the reader some idea if it contains elements they would find offensive. That's why I was careful to warn readers that Deal or No Deal was different from the usual sweet stories I flavor. Lets face it! No one here is going to like everything that is posted here. We are just too different and our journeys down the road of life has just taken us to different places. I don't have to mention how many times one commenter has called a story sweet while another recoils in horror.
My advise such as it is: be as honest as you can in categories and in your disclaim because in the end it is the READER'S choice.
In Daneille's case, I think that she was mislead and instead felt the character of Kelly was having HIS life ruined regardless of his wishes while most others saw the story as a education for HER to see herself as others saw her. I have read that Danelle has a very strong sense of justice and again I'm guessing she felt Kelly was being ruthlessly manipulated injusticeally.
Write what your heart and mind tells and warn the reader what lays within Hugs Wanda
Good stuff, bad stuff
If authors want the credit for good results that come from reading a story, must they take the bad, too?
Ed McBain wrote Fuzz, an 87th Precinct Mystery. In the cop story, someone was setting homeless men on fire by dousing them with lighter fluid. Within weeks of the movie Fuzz premiering, similar crimes were being committed. The Chowchilla kidnappers who abducted a busload of children reportedly used a fiction book as a blueprint for their crime, though this was later disputed.
At first Ed McBain and Hugh Pentecost, the authors involved, apologized for their "involvement" but later retracted their statements, saying (paraphrased from memory) that they were sorrowful for what had happened but having no authority over the actions of the criminals they could not accept any implied responsibility for the criminal acts.
Here's a website discussing this topic: There's so much comedy on television, does that cause comedy in the streets?.
I dispute the idea that there is any child abuse in "Kelly Girl", especially involving Kelly. One could make a case for child abuse having been mentioned in Barbie's history but "Kelly Girl" is a comedy of errors based on the timeworn plot used by Shakespeare and others. And Kelly is no one's victim as anyone who has read the story to completion would know unless they refused to change a preconception.
I'm upset and angry over the accusation and doubly upset at being cornered with the idea that my story may have upset someone else so much that they may commit suicide. I'm damned if I defend myself and damned if I don't.
Then I choose to defend myself since I am damned either way.
"Kelly Girl" contains no child abuse but even if it did, it is FICTION. Save any tears and upset for REAL children who are starving, who are sold into slavery, who are forced to become soldiers, who are DYING by tens of thousands from cruelty and neglect. If anyone wants to blame depression on some victimization of someone, there are plenty of real victims to be upset about.
Fiction is not real. Anything written can be interpreted in many different ways by different readers, insert your favorite religious war here.
As to including warnings on Kelly Girl or codings: I can't conceive of what sort of warning would have alerted someone who might have been vulnerable. I used to code KG as R but having seen the sorts of movies being shown as G and PG, I felt that I might be scaring off people who would enjoy the story. I can't read the minds of people who have not yet read my story, it's ridiculous to suppose that I should be expected to.
All that said...
Depression is real, and it kills. I have sat in a bathtub with a razor in my hand contemplating infinity.
Looking for an outside source for one's depression is attempting to avoid the issue. Depression is an internal problem which may be influenced by external problems but it must be dealt with as an internal issue. It's very hard to deal with depression alone, anyone who feels depressed would be better off looking for help than looking for someone to blame. Counseling is available, in most places in the US and other industrial countries, it's free with the usual bureaucratic restrictions. Not an ideal solution but it exists. Churches are another source if one is careful to pick an open-minded venue.
Good luck, and be well.
None of my usual smilies,
Wanda
codings
I know it is hard not to feel responsible when someone blames you for something. People feel guilty over many things they shouldn't; I know that from personnal experance. Your codes are correct. I re-read the first chapter and "Kelly Girl" is just a comedy of errors. It is fantasy no more - no less.
Reading about someone else's screw ups makes my own problems less important even when one is fiction and the other is all too real.
I hope all becomes better for Danielle, but your story no more caused her problems then did the "Texas Chain Saw Massacre." I won't watch that piece of filth, I do injoy your stories.
Start smiling again.
And please continue to write.
Sorry, Wanda
I was trying to make my comments as story-neutral as possible, and I honestly didn't remember that you wrote "Kelly Girl". As I have said before, I seem to fall into the occasional p***ing matches that have occurred on here, and I'm doing my darnedest not to get into another one with anybody, nor to be seen as attacking another person.
And, let's face it, you have no responsibility for how another decides to act after reading a story of yours. Anymore than musicians have for unstable people killing themselves while listening to certain songs. The idea that people do things to themselves or others based on what they read, the music they listen to, or the TV shows and movies they watch is part and parcel of our current culture, where nobody is responsible for their actions. "The (insert whatever) made me do it." Total BS.
We are all supposed to be rational, thinking adults. I've been molested, and had to deal with severe medical problems over the course of my life. I've thought about doing something, on several occasions. But if I had, it would have been my decision, and mine alone. I can say part of the blame would rest with the man who, lets be blunt here, repeatedly raped me as a child. Had that not happened, it would have been one less burden to bear. But in the end, the decision not to kill myself was mine alone, just as the decision to do so would have been mine also. Along the way I had the help and support of a good therapist and some good friends; but it would not have been their fault if I had killed myself.
So, you do what you have to do. Hopefully it includes keeping on writing.
Karen J.
"A dress makes no sense unless it inspires men to want to take it off you."
Francoise Sagan
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Responsibility, dreams, fiction
Wanda,
I think the one responsibility of a story teller is to the story; hopefully it entertains (rewards the reader for the effort made to move there eyes.), but with even that you can only hope. You can not know what every reader will bring to the story. Just like Hal said, Kings and authors are only responsible for there on sins.
It is because these are fantasies that we have trouble. People do dream of being dominated, and even being put into bondage or infantized; those are absolute releases from responsibility. Some people long for the elysian release of a replaced or forgotten past; others see that as tantamount to murder. Sigh.
There are dark and horrible stories out there certainly. I too try to avoid them, but maybe the readers (at least some, if not most.) find them a release, a catharses from their on horrors and fears. We don't think Steven King readers all identify with the ghost, or the '57 Chevy, or what ever the monster is this year, do we? Of course some do identify with the monsters; let's hope reading is usually a substitute, and pray for those poor people. Maybe some things probably should be banned: I don't won't to make the judgments and can't even imagine a person i would want to have that power.
The story that Danielle mentioned was one of the first stories I read on this (or any TG) site, and is one of my favorites. (Another of your stories was also one of the first and would be one of my favorites except... never mind - not here - like I should talk.) It is one of the great conventions these stories that anyone that can easily pass as the other gender, should be the other gender. Would that it were true. Going either way. (Some day I might write that story) People who have long struggled to find the courage to show there gender (or simply to find it) frame such events as opportunities (what ever created them).
In real life, a person who has been ridiculed and tormented for behaviors or appearances, will often see such things as extremely frightening and humiliating. And some will see the story the same way; maybe, even when they saw it differently on an earlier reading. In real life, we know, that not all effeminate boys or masculine girls are really TG, actually few are. In fact many, if not most, are not gay either. Life just isn't that easy. But in our dreams and stories we want it to work out. I hate forced-fem stories; but I read them hoping that some marvelously insightful being is leading the protagonist down a golden path of discovery. One of the great things about 'Kelly Girl" is that the discovery is of the possibility not some instantly realized truth.
Wanda, I long for a gentle, tolerant, kind world. (Don't think we're getting any closer.) I also long for more of your gentle, kind stories. (Hope that is more realistic.)
Love, hugs, joy:
Jan
Liberty is more than the freedom to be just like you.
Entertainment and Consistency
These are the two things I want from an author, the first is shared equally between the reader and the author. The reader controls what they are reading; therefore, if they are not being entertained, then they should quit reading.
The second thing consistency (I almost went with honesty) is much more in the control of the author. In my mind this basically is equal to not following the dishonest marketing concept of bait and switch. Authors should not draw in their audience with one style of writing and then switch midstream into a completely different style. For instance, don't make a lovable character suddenly detestable, without providing a path. Or don't start a serial as PG and suddenly move it to XXX.
Kelly Girl could easily have been an inconsistent story, it trickled out over months and months. But in my view it never strayed that far away from being a story about two little blond waifs, both who were younger and older than their ages. Both who were realistic enough to understand their situation, but were willing to experiment and see if others could improve it. They seemed to walk the fine line between being used or being users without falling over to the bad side.
It boils down to upfront honesty
Wanda,
You post your offering and tag it as well as you can as to what it contains. Although it must be within the parameters set up for the site where you are posting
If the groupings available do not include all possible interpretations, then do your best to present it in the synopsis. If you make a mistake with those, then you apologize and correct it.
So, that said, I've read a bit of the Kelly Girl saga. (Particularly after reading these comments.) Yeah, it is not to my taste. So what. Did you mis-represent it? I don't think so. Sometimes I read stories that are outside of my regular interests. Sometimes they surprise me and draw me in. Sometimes they don't and I stop. But if you are honest about what is in your story and it is not something I normally read, yet I read it anyway, I do not have the right to complain about the premise or the story line or where you take your characters.
I don't have to read your story!
I CAN (if I read the whole tale) criticize the mechanics of your story; your grammar, your spelling or whether I think it is believable that a character did something. I can complain that a particular scene makes no sense because of something that happened earlier. I must say why I think something is not well written (I my opinion) but I have to tell you why I think so. And other people have the right to disagree with me.
I cannot bitch about a man being dominated by his wife or lover, or about a rape or murder, or some other content simply because I don’t like those kinds of stories, if I know ahead of time that those things are in the story. You tell me something is going to happen – I can’t whine when it happens. You tell me your narrative is a sweet romance and it is really a forced, panty-slave story, yes I have a right to complain.
Jamie
Honesty and, well, honesty
Wanda,
sorry you got caught in the cross-hairs. I have read parts of Kely Girl. Never finished it, an oversite I must remedy. I have read many of your short stories posted here and your still-in-progress story, The Fairy King. The Fairy King is a wondfully inventive piece that looks at life through a child's eyes with magic, shifting realities, talking animals and lots of interesting things.
I write a little, mostly Whateley Academy fan Fic. It's rather over-the-top and fun for the most part. As an author(?) -- I use the term under advisement in my case -- I owe the reader to be honest in my description of the contents. If adult situatons are portrayed --sex, violence, or whatever could be objectional -- I try to honestly point that out in the tags(?) I select. I also point it out in my disclaimer, though often in a humorous way, but I try not to mislead.
Of your stories I have read completely, your disclaimer/tags, whatever they are called, are honest and accurate. From what I have read of Kelly Girl, you are honest and accurate there also.
Similar incidents have occured with other on-line authors, Angela Rasch comes to mind. Comments by a reader who -- I believe if my memory is correct -- claimed a story of her's distressed him/her to the point of contimplating suicide caused her to pull all her stories at Crystal's site. The story the person mentioned is one of my favorites among hers and quite upbeat in it's tone, not a hint of abuse in sight. It was clearly the commenter's own pesonal distress and confusion that got focused on Angela and not anything she had done.
You, for that matter no one, deserves abuse heaped upon them, even when the *heaper* is not well at the time.
I am happy Danielle is on the mend and has made attempts to make-up for her unfortuate remarks. I hope you have not been so wounded as to give up on writing.
If, in my attempts to help Danielle calm down and get help, I offended you or anyone else, I am sorry. I did get at least one PM from a reader/author I respect who thought I had been remiss or incorrect in what I had said. I am sorry if it came off that way.
Best wishes to all. Hope to see more of your work as your muse wills.
John in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa
My suggestion
I'm not an author (yet), just a reader. But in my opinion I'd apply the categories to the entire concept, not individual chapters. Here's why:
Take 1 reader with a strong distaste for a particular story-element, say incest
If you write your story and it has some incest in let's say chapter 23, then that reader might get snagged in by your excellent telling in the first chapters (not marked with INC since it's not in those chapters) and eagerly open each new episode when it becomes available without further checking on codes. That means ch 23 will have a bad surprise for our reader.
Now if you mark your story with the INC code from the start, that reader is warned from the beginning. The only problem here is that you'd have to *know* beforehand what you'll include.
Hugs,
Kimby
My view
You're the author, do it the way you're comfortable with just remembering the dual purpose of the keywords: to help readers find stories hey will like and avoid ones that might upset them.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Disclaimer
I believe that readers who like to give there own 'interpretation' to what you wrote are entirely to blame themselves when they draw conclusions you never intended to be drawn. I believe I don't have to tell anyone how many millions of people on this earth already died in the last thousands of years because some nutcase figure out a whole new 'interpretation' for some religious text. I've never heard anyone suggest we should ban the bible because of it.
The smart thing to do is have a small disclaimer stating a few facts about your story:
- it's FICTION (and anyone who doesn't understand that word should not read the story)
- because it's fiction, things that are said and done in the story are fictional and do not automagically match the opinion of the writer. Of course, some writers then write a story that almost reads like a political manifesto, thus making it very difficult for the reader to believe the author might have another opinion.
- you could also make an attempt to list some things that happen in your story and might make some people uncomfortable. There are a few problems with that. Firstly, there's always a nutcase out there objecting to something ridiculous (eg: your hero kills a fly and he'll call it animal abuse). Secondly, the more detailed your warnings, the more they actually become spoilers for your story, so you'd probably best try to be somewhat vague.
Don't let anyone try to make you feel guilty because some stupid or criminal actions committed by someone are supposedly caused by your story. If someone commits suicide after reading it, then that person was unstable to start with and would have committed the same act because he found a dead kitten in the street or something silly like that. The worst your story could do is give someone ideas on HOW to commit a crime. Seems to me Agatha Christy books are still not forbidden :)
Hugs,
Kimby
Be responsible to yourself
None
Nada
Zip
Zilch
It has to be a one-way street.
Initially.
An author cannot, and should not, constrain her Muse on the basis of the possible reaction from readers.
There is, I suppose, some responsibilty (?? sense, certainly) to publish the writing in a 'sympathetic' arena. As it happens Wanda, every part of your writings that I have read has given me pleasure - but even if that were not the case, that would be my problem and mine alone. To mangle the quote: "You can please all of the people some of the time..." (You can write the rest.)
If a reader chooses to respond to an author, then the author may choose to accept the implied offer of intimacy. Then the the question of responsibility could become a little murkier. But in any event, if the interaction is not a meeting of minds on a calm and rational level, it doesn't help anyone.
I'm not suggesting banning frivolity or censure, necessarily; just insisting that both sides work hard to ensure that the other fully understands what is going on, at all times. I also think that when matters get to that point of detail, opinions are better traded privately than put up on the wall for all to see - and where they are frequently misunderstood.
As far as flagging stores is concerned, I look at the tags, the teaser, the universe (where relevant), and the author, before I start to read. There are a handful of authors for whose stories by default I lean towards "possibly leave unread"; but even for those authors I will start to read if the synopsis or the tags suggest that this is not the author's usual patch.
In fact Angel has persuaded me (not directly nor personally, but by her position) that as a mere reader, I have some responsibility to try all the stories posted here. Twenty Friday nights a year, my friends and I don evening clothes to go to a lecture (the men in DJs, even) as a mark of respect to the speaker. I think that we lurking readers perhaps owe a similar respect to all the writers. But the writers owe us nothing unless we respond to their writings; and only then if we respond in a manner driven by both thought and thoughtfulness.
Xi
Gulp
Quoted:
Offer of intimacy ? O.o
I guess I better stop responding to stories before someone gets the wrong idea then :s
Hugs,
Kimby
Minds, not bodies
I am old enogh to have received training under the banner of "Transactional Analysis" (TA).
The aim of this was described as to "gain intimacy", by which was meant a meeting of minds.
Underlying the system was the concept that all personalities are a blend of "Parent", "Adult", and "Child". No blend is better or worse than any other, but some pairs of blends interact well together and others are more like oil and water. Certain blends were touted as better for certain roles. The idea was that by analysing what the personalities were, interactions could be optimised and "intimacy achieved".
As usual, the grain of truth was overlaid by a ton of chaff; put there so that the hucksters actually had a program to sell. But the message of first looking at the personalities before opening an interaction has stayed with me - even if it is more honoured in the breach.
Xi
Thanks, all
This is a fruitful discussion, regardless of why it was started.
Thanks to all who have commented and offered support.
{{{;>
Wanda
HUGGELS Wanda
Wanda, I have Kelly Girl in print and in pdf and I'm still waiting for part 2 "PLEASE"
and have (I think) most all of your other stories, "all good" and hoping for more!
Like The Fairy King?
Thank You
HUGGELS
ChrisW
"OMG," its full of Stars
Open the pod doors Hal.