A silly bit of nonsense re: the English language

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As an example of the

(please select: power/complexity/ deliciousness/stupidity/wonder/insert your own)

of the English language, it occurred to me today that:

Read and lead rhyme.
As do read and lead.

But read does not rhyme with lead.
Nor does read rhyme with lead.

Have fun where and when you can!

Joolz.

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Vowels

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English language has the worst consistency for vowel sounds among the world languages. Just look at the word Arkansas and the word Kansas. How many different vowel sounds do you find? Only one of them is a proper A vowel. There should be at least four different vowels there. Now you may say that is unfair since they are latinisations of native words. Sure, but if that is the case, they are they *wrong* latinisations since there are better vowel choices for having the spelling reflect the origin. There are plenty of examples to be found among English words that are not proper nouns. E.g. beer and reed - the second is a proper long I sound, not an E sound at all, yet it's the most common sound when a word is spelled with two E, and also the way the letter itself is pronunced...

Not to speak of the fact that at least one vowel, which is used in the language predominantly as a vowel, is not considered to be a vowel! Why is Y not considered to be a vowel???

ar-kən-saw per state law in Arkansas

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Sorry, just because the people mispronounce the Arkansas does is not a good example of English vowel confusion. If we just could get the rest of the world outside of Kansas to agree, we would not have some of the confusion. :-D.

By the way, the river that flows through Wichita is the Arkansas ( /ɑːrˈkænzəs/ ar-kan-zəs) River. However, Arkansas law (cir 1881) says it is pronounced ar-kən-saw.

Wait... did I just prove your point! Darn Americans messing with the Queen's English.

Arkansas

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Angharad's picture

doesn't derive from an English root, it's Souian so wouldn't follow English pronunciation.

Angharad

Worse than that

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erin's picture

Arkansas is a Siouian-derived word meaning something like "Land of Friends," as pronounced by one of the local tribes whose language was not Siouian as interpreted by French explorers as communicated to English explorers as re-interpreted by American settlers. :) The amazing thing is that Kansas, a similarly-derived word shares six letters even though they are not pronounced the same. There's also Witchita, Ouashitaw and Washita in the area; the same word, meaning "the hunting is good here," inherited through three different paths.

Myself, I'm part Cherokee, a word that can't exist in the Cherokee language that has no 'r' sound. :) Cherokee is an English attempt to spell what the French thought was the name of the tribe as reported by the Muskegee who were actually saying something like: "Tsalagi" which meant, approximately, "Usually friendly," in Muskegee, not Cherokee. The Cherokee, being actually several subtribes with different names have adopted the Muskegee word for the whole people.

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Even better - many of the

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Even better - many of the names are derived from the names given by -other- tribes. Mostly that meant 'not people', or a description about them. "Blubber eaters", is a big example.

Yes, American names for places shouldn't be compared to English unless they're _from_ England. We have a lot of places with goofy names. - Cheyenne, for example.

I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

The Great Vowel Shift

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Is mostly to blame.

After several hundred years, we ended up with most vowels moving back and down. The thing is, it didn't stop the same way in all areas. Thus we had the 'oot' sound for Canadian English, the drawl for southern American English, and so forth. It's STILL happening in upstate new york across to Michigan. ("Party Salad" for "pretty solid" for someone from Rochester)

However, not everything shifted. We have 'bough' and 'bow', and 'draught' and 'draft', and 'bow' and 'bow' (to bend at the waist, and to have an item to fire an arrow)

The strange thing, to me, is that everything I've found points to English being the only language to have those sorts of large scale vowel shifts, which explains the variety of dialects of pure English compared to any other language.

I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

odd thefts of language

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erin's picture

"So long" is from Arabic, by way of Malay.
"Jerky" is from Quechua (language of the Incas) by way of Spanish
"Honcho" is from Japanese but may have its derivation there from Chinese
"Shampoo" is from Hindi but they likely got it from somewhere else
"Ketchup" is probably from Chinese, ultimately; we borrowed it from Hindi which had borrowed it from Malay. It's possible that the Chinese was borrowing a Malay mispronunciation of an Arabic borrowing from Latin!! The original meaning seems to have been "mashed together".

And the original ketchup appears to have been made from fish, mushrooms and walnuts. :)

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Shampoo

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Is originally from Chinese as well, not sure where the Hindu got it from, if it was directly from China (possible, China had occupied much of the Hindu speaking world for a long time), or if it wound up there through some other channel.

Abigail Drew.

English and badder English!

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Tanya Allan's picture

English is one language that has no scruples at stealing whatever is needed to add to its massive vocabulary. If you haven't read Bill Bryson's MOTHER TONGUE, I'd advise you to. We have over 300,000 words in our language that stretches across the globe. It steals wherever it goes, and adapts locally to create its own unique blend with whatever was there before. Incidentally, the French language has less than 200,000 words in its global vocabulary and the French Language police want to ban any stealing from English like le picnic and le sandwich.
The mere fact that there is no such thing as the right way to talk or spell, means it is a fluid, vibrant and living language that adapts and changes with each new generation. However, clearly it works, for an English Speaker in the deep south of the USA can communicate with someone in Australia, South Africa and even Scotland (okay, maybe not!)

Someone from the south of England will have a completely different way of speaking to someone who lives just 200 miles up the road.

If a well-educated person should fall on their arse on the grass, the two words would rhyme with a farce, whereas someone from up north would still have an arse, but would fall on the grass (rhyming with ass). Likewise, in the south, glass would rhyme with arse, but in the north it would thyme with ass.
All that notwithstanding, we can still effectively communicate around the world both orally and in writing.
Cool, isn't it?

Tanya

There's no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes!

Typically French! Can't even remember their own language!

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persephone's picture

Picnic is actually an English theft from French of 'Le pique nique' (entered the French language in1692, then stolen by perfidious Albion in 1758).
Of course 'Le sandwich' came from a boozy gamester (The fourth Earl of Sandwich) who couldn't be bothered to leave the card table to eat. Entertainingly it entered usage at about the same time we Brits started enjoying "Le Pique Nique".

Our French cousins just can't get over the fact that if they were better at warfare their language would be more prevalent.

Persephone

Non sum qualis eram

That's not true! The French

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That's not true! The French are EXCELLENT at warfare. They've had lots of practice.

They're just lousy at _winning_. There's quite a bit of difference. Even their Civil War was a draw.

I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

However, while spelling,

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However, while spelling, dialect, and pronunciation have changed in the last twelve hundred years, grammar and punctuation has remained reasonably static. Despite what people _want_ to believe, there is a proper structure to write English.

I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

But TV and YouPipe...

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Are diluting English pronunciation and accents. Some 100 years ago it was possible to localize English accent not just to the area of London, but to the particular street. Now it is difficult to localize accent to London Eastside/Westside divide :-)

I believe that the 'official'

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I believe that the 'official' from the second edition was over 600,000

I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

Languages as Marble Cake

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It is most obvious that American English has words in it from many other languages including ancient Greek and Latin. Though I can't give examples now, there are words from Native American cultures also. This is not strange because Spanish is 27% Arabic, largely from the time when the Moors lived in Southern Spain, which they called Andalusia. From my own exposure to Arabic speaking cultures, mainly Saudi, they do the same thing. There are words in spoken contemporary Arabic that are right out of English, French and other languages. In Arabic, "cold" is "Brrrd", with the r rolled.

I wish I had learned much more Arabic but as one might expect, being a tg Muslim is a study in pain and non-acceptance. Lately I realize that my attraction to Islam was largely because it was NOT Christian, since they had badly hurt me. And, so deep was my own feeling of shame that the anonymity provided by the clothing covered my unworthiness.

Not intending to derail the thread here, but I'm too lazy to start one of my own this morning.

The most obvious

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Native American influences are in place names. Chicago, IL and Winooski, VT both mean onion in the local native languages. I grew up in Syracuse, NY. The Sicilian place name is unmistakeable, but it's in Onondaga County, after the tribe that is the keeper of the council fire in the Iroquois confederacy. Iroquois being a french word for the people that called themselves Kanonsionni, or people of the long house. I remember seeing it spelled Akwasasne in a '60s tribal newsletter

Liz

Chicago

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In the state of Eeyanwah, but written the French way as Illinois...

Joolz...

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Angharad's picture

see what you started with your red led?

Ang 8)

Angharad

I never expected all this ...

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There are a million threads shooting off from this, with Monty Python quotes galore being appropriate for some future comments, and Simpson quotes ("Cheese-eating surrender monkeys" as an example) and, just maybe, some actual factual facts.

But I really did not imagine most of this ...

I think we need a lunch to get over it - maybe at some French restaurant?

My goodness.

J

Just look up...

Submitted by on

"Dearest creature in creation, study English pronunciation".
Quite a long poem...
I first encountered it about 20 years ago... So far I've met one (1) person who was able to read it without stopping and correcting.... grr... pronunciation...
:-)

All the Germanic languages

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All the Germanic languages share systematic consontant shifts relative to proto-Indo-European. (Grimm's Law.) And also share several words, such as sea, which cannot be derived from proto-Indo-European.

Apparently the Satem languages share systematic consonant and vowel shifts relative to proto-Indo-European. (RUKI Sound Law.)

I'm sure there are comparable examples in every other language family.

English orthography predates the last major English sound shifts. Someone mentioned the Great Vowel Shift above. Orthographic reform hasn't gotten anywhere, and won't get anywhere unless it can cope with dialect diversity. Orthographic de-form has gotten quite far though, with the addition of a spurious s in "island," properly iland, a spurious b in "debt," properly det, and a pretentious i in "aluminium," properly aluminum because it's named after alumina. American English spelling tries to look like we're borrowing from Latin, and British English like they're borrowing from French. I'd like to switch alphabets.

So, you want to rework

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So, you want to rework English spelling like this.

http://www.smart-words.org/humor-jokes/language-humor/englis...

Of course, Mark Twain had it best about German in his 'The Awful German Language'.

http://www.kombu.de/twain-2.htm

I will note that despite his satirical comment about the speed of learning English, French, and German, Twain had it right that English is VERY easy to learn compared to the others - at least in learning enough to get by. Those that don't simply aren't trying. You don't need a 50,000 word vocabulary. You can get by with probably 250 words, and they don't even have to be in proper grammar structure. (Try THAT in French, Spanish, Italian, or German)

I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

Then there are the mispronounciations

Submitted by on

that Americans seem to have down to a tee.
Derby - The place
Derby - The race
Gloucester - Famous for its Cheese
Worcester - for the Sauce.
and even
Oxford (with a hard 'r')

You really do not have to pronounce every syllable you know.

Actually

Submitted by on

erin's picture

Most of the American pronunciations you mention above have remained the same for more than three centuries; it's the British sound that has changed. American hard-r is based on Scots-Irish and West Country and Welsh accents in the British Isles and that sound was widespread in England. It was, in fact, part of Shakespeare's own native accent and he makes fun of it in several of his plays because he knew from personal experience how funny Londoners thought it sounded.

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

aluminium

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If aluminium should be written aluminum because it's named after alumina should americium be written americum because it's named after America?

epain

Ok - if we're going YouTubing ...

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... then I can only thoroughly recommend the following (hour-long) talk/lecture by Simon Winchester to a Canadian audience.

It is seriously fascinating, and well worth taking the time to listen to, if you are fond of our quaint language. I promise you it is so well worth listening to, well worth investing just one hour of your life to.

And will correct some of the inaccuracies that have been posted in this thread.

And yes, it briefly mentions (at around 3:45) French Military 'prowess'.

But I feel bound to repeat my exhortations. I seriously found this to be absolutely fascinating and compelling listening for anyone who loves this incredible language of ours. And is a wonderful exposition of quiet and gentle humour.

Bulbulcitate. (Yes, an old English word and I frankly admit that I have no idea if my spelling is correct.)
Pudicity.

I do hope that someone out there will find as much enjoyment in this as I have.

Joolz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3SmOsbLays

Reading. The Adventure ...

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I was late learning to read because of the uproar I lived in, so when a teacher decided I was going to read, she gave me a book, Heinlein's, "Red Planet" and a children's dictionary. She helped me quite a lot and if I remember correctly by the time the book was finished, I was reading and no one could stop me.

I still keep a dictionary handy when reading, and I try to incorporate the words I learn into my own speech and writing.

The book that got me reading was

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Catcher in the Rye followed by D.H. Lawrence, Selected Short Stories.
I still remember the tale called 'The Clippy' to this day.

And yet ...

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... whenever there's play or film based on DH Lawrence they NEVER get the pronunciation right and the characters speak with a vaguely S Yorkshire accent instead of the Erewash valley one like what I do :)

The 'clippy' in the short story worked on the trams that once passed our house before they were superseded by trolley buses (called tracklesses) which have also disappeared.

Robi (who was born just across the road from where DHL was)

I thought DHL

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Angharad's picture

was either a delivery service or made sofas?

Angharad