TopShelf TG Fiction in the BigCloset!
Why are readers so mean in giving kudos? I'm not talking about comments, which actually require engagement and effort, but those little things which need just a push of a button. Even excellent stories like Jenny Walker's.
What's so hard about letting an author know you appreciated the effort they put into entertaining you?
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Comments
Expectations
I’m new here, but it’s clear to me that this discussion occurs in the blogs a couple times a year. I think the people who generally don’t leave kudos are not the ones reading blogs!
And really — that’s okay. As authors, we need affirmation; as a community, we want engagement. As a going concern, the site needs eyeballs. A fair number of the people who come here and just check out a story or two probably don’t even know the kudos button exists, or think it’s something that will leave an identifying marker, or whatever. Their eyeballs still help support the site, because it’s a metric that advertisers are interested in.
It took me a while to realize that a ten percent kudo rate was actually good, and didn’t mean that ninety percent of the people who read my story hated it. When you are five or ten chapters into a story, it’s simply implausible that people who don’t like your story are still clicking on new installments.
The way I look at it, if one of my stories gets lots of clicks, yay! It’s got legs. If it gets lots of kudos, yay! It’s got legs with the much smaller community of active participants on the site. And if it gets lots of comments, yay! I have really sweet friends. :)
— Emma
Interpretation
Over the span of its existence, BC has had several iterations of expression of reader satisfaction.
The current kudos system seems to be the least objectionable.
My problem with kudos is that over the years I've noticed very little correlation between what I think is quality writing and the number of kudos a story receives.
That becomes problematic when an author pours her heart into a story and feels rejected by the community.
I give a kudo to any story I finish and find interesting or even enjoyable.
Nearly twenty years ago, a young girl, probably in her thirties, posted several stories. They were horrible. They also cried out for help.
My Grinchy heart grew three times and I contacted all my friends on BC to make sure they read and complimented her story. They responded admirably.
That girl soon became a vibrant part of the community and spoke about what a positive impact BC had on her life.
Now - imagine if that girl's stories had received a paltry amount of attention. She could have continued what appeared to be a downward spiral.
Further, imagine if I hadn't grasped that opportunity. I've felt good about myself in retrospect many times. It had a positive impact on me.
I've scored over sixty contest related stories. I'm also watching the kudos and comments each story receives. When the contest is completed I will compile a statistical analysis. I'm sure there will be only a marginal correlation between what I think is good writing and the number of kudos and comments stories receive.
However, authors can choose to interpret kudos and comments as affirmation, something we all need.
My mother taught me the importance of sending a bread and butter letter after a visit. Thank yous were not optional in my home.
A kudo is a thank you.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
My turn
You have heard from the three people who are instrumental in running the current contest. They have donated a lot of time and energy toward making this site great.. They sweat over hot keyboards giving us their muse's genius.
I have yet to post a story. But I read many of them here. And as I finish, I check the visitor counts and thump the kudo thingie. Always thump the kudo button! It doesn't mean that I liked it, or even understood the message. Literature is a two party game. Those who write, they write. Them what reads, they read. The kudo is my answer back "message received" and "Thank You" and "someone is awake on this end" these are all necessary. It is the only payment required for free entertainment.
Plus, if you read the story again at a later date, the 'including you' lets you know why is seemed familiar (or worse, gets you wondering why you don't remember). It also means that someone is keeping score. Nothing like a little paranoia?
Just use the kudo button, please.
Ron
Variability in Kudos
What I don't understand is why the last chapter of a few of my longer stories has significantly more kudos than the second-to-last chapter. Chapter 26 of Shortcuts has 51 more kudos than chapter 25. Why?
I've been told by a couple of readers that they just don't think to do it except for maybe the first and last chapter. But how hard is it to click a little icon. The kudos icon is fairly obvious at the end of the story. I just don't get it.
Even if I don't particularly like a story, if I finish it, I still click the kudos button to show my appreciation for the attempt. Authors spend time crafting their story and share it for free on this site. I want to reward them with something, however small, to support them so they'll continue to write. Though practice doesn't necessarily mean perfect, it often does lead to improvement. An author might write a bad story now, but they might eventually improve and create a masterpiece. The kudos button is an extremely small investment in the hope of getting a future masterpiece.
C'mon, readers. Loosen up a little and click the kudos button more!
- Terry
I've Been On Both Sides
As the title says, I have been on both sides of the issue, failing to support when I should and being hurt when I was not supported with my story. I've apologized for my failures, and now try not to be hurt though it is hard.
Gwen
Think it's...
Okay to watch the numbers, but putting too much stock in them can get depressing. I'm with Emma, though think 6-10% Kudo's to read number tells me people enjoyed it enough to bother pressing the Kudo button. I've got 40 submissions and of them only 3 fall below that mark I've set in my mind. I can use that to study where I might have fallen short - so there's value in that to.
Where I ignore the numbers game is when I get a couple comments (or message) that speak to me about the story in a way I know I've hit the mark. It's a tough thing I think w/ the hits because if a comment is left, the reader will most likely go back to the story to see if we've commented, and I feel like that ups the count (seems like - could be wrong) - so that blows any of these percentage numbers / ideas I have.
I'm afraid I'm a click on a story, begin reading, and if I don't like it - the author still gets a Kudo click. That's my 'Thank You' because there was effort, time donated, and a sharing. If I read it and I enjoyed the story - I generally comment - though on some of the chapter stories I'm not as good at commenting (and I need to fix that to encourage great writing). I think encouraging authors who give this stuff away for free might not be in peeps minds, I get it, ya get numb to it or as someone stated maybe they think they're tracked in some Google like fashion because it does say 'Including you...' or worse if you comment. And as stories can be tough to create - so can a meaningful comment that is more than, "Love this story, thank you..." - but maybe that's enough.
Interesting topic and there are a lot of great minds who've run at it. Not sure there's an answer.
Hugz!
Rachel M. Moore
Kudos
I tend to give Kudos to any story I finish. Two reasons for that. It lets me know what stories I have read years later. It also rewards the author. I am terrible with commenting, however.
My primary story tends to get only a few kudos and no comments. But it is a non-transgender story on a transgender site. It would get a lot more attention at an age regression site. However, I quite like this site.
Nothing wrong
Over 60 stories (and counting) in 14 days. 4–5 stories a day. Very different. I usually read no more than 2 a day (slow reading - slow writing).
I leave a kudo for every read story, appreciating an author.
Give readers additional time to read, after story submission is over.
Don’t worry; be happy
I think you’re worrying too much. Write for you... not for a click. Otherwise you might start censoring yourself to only write things that conform to some imagined community ideal – which can only lead to groupthink and ultimately disappointment. Also, don’t fall into the trap of comparing your work with the stories of yesteryear, when BC was bigger and busier. Most people who open a story probably only glance at it to see if it’s for them and don’t commit to reading down to the end.
A writer writes. Sometimes, they choose to show something to others, free of charge – which is only possible because of the Internet. Enjoy it: no publishers have to take a chance on an unknown author; no shops have to decide whether to allocate some of their expensive retail space; no trees have to be turned into wood pulp. To me, the idea that we should substitute for those constraints by building some kind of gratitude economy into the process feels unnecessary, perhaps even a distraction.
Have fun with your writing, clicks or no clicks. The click will not make you a better writer. Writing another story probably will.
Sugar and Spiiice – TG Fiction by Bryony Marsh
I totally agree with you.
When I first started writing it was form of therapy for me. Mostly I revisited my childhood and wrote "I wish this would have happened" stories. They centered on some small aspect of my transgender journey and expanded it to what I considered to have been a better or fuller outcome.
As I ran out of those moments, I expanded to more complete fiction/less actual happenings that were embellished. However, that doesn't mean that my writing is totally devoid of any part of my journey, On the contrary; it's a rare story that doesn't include some part that has it's roots in my life or my wished it had happened this way. It's just that the story centers on a fictional character that has little or no basis in real life.
I now write because I enjoy the challenge in creating an interesting tale. It's a bonus if others enjoy reading it. As far as comments goes. I try not to look at them until I've had time to disengage myself from the story. I usually wrap my psyche up in the protagonist and my mind become their mind. If I read the comments in that frame of mind it's hard to accept negative comments, even if it's constructive criticism. Way too easy to take it personally.
It does disturb me when a reader tells me that my story has affected them in a negative way in their personal life. One reader mentioned in a PM that they had lost sleep due to the fact they had perceived the protagonist had been unfairly treated by their spouse. That shook me a bit and prompted a long discussion regarding the mind set and motivations of the characters. I'm not sure that it was ever totally resolved in the readers mind.
At the end of the day, I write because there's a story in me that needs to get out. Any positive comment is gravy. If a story reaches 100 kudos, then I consider it a hit. I've tried to analyze the kind of story that hits that kind of metric so I can write more like it. Unfortunately my muse is not on board with that effort. She gives me the story that's there without any consideration of what the reader would like to read.
Writing is a hobby, if I enjoy it, that's enough.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin ein femininer Mann
When I was young.
I started writing when I was fourteen or fifteen years old. My first story was a "Legend of Zelda" fanfiction were the main character Link ended up wearing a dress and getting dunked in pond water. I was very proud of this story, and proud of the humor. And the mild flirting going on between Link and Zelda. Long story short, the community rejected me and for the next five years I stumbled. When I turned twenty I started writing for a spanking anime site called AOTK, comments were rarer than hen's teeth but they did have a rating system. Most of my stories were rated 'C+' with a few being 'A+'. I plugged and endured for seven years on that site.
Now, I will confess, when I came here, I was broken, I was shy, I was scared and my first few stories, burned brighter than a new star being born. I'm ashamed to say I pulled those stories down and went into hiding. But, in the eight or so years I've been a member, I've seen a number of amazing stories, both have high kudo counts and high comment counts.
In short, I think the more we lift each other up, the more we "Kudo" each other works, the more we comment on each other works, the more we lift each other up, the more we become fused together, the more traffic we will get and the more people will see what a wonderful, kind and carring community this is.
Just my few pennies anyway. But lets take this message to heart and use it to fuel us into showing our sisters how much we love their stories. After all, we are one big, somewhat happy online family right?
I don't understand
I don't understand your "When I was young". You still are.
Sometimes I feel like a fossil..
When tell my little cousin that I remember when there were only one hundred and fifty one Pokemon to catch, train and force to battle and he just looks at me. Or when I showed him my old Gameboy Color and he asked me if It hooked up to the internet and when I told him, that when I was growing up our handhelds did not hook up to the internet and we needed to a special cable to trade pokemon with our friends and random trainers, the look he gives me, makes me feel like I've stepped out of time and space. Oh the memories of a bygone era and a time forgotten by most. Like when malls were still the place to go on Saturday night or could still phone in a pizza order. XD
Whippersnapper
When and where I grew up malls were not a place to go on Saturday night for the simple reason that there were no malls (and that was the national capital).
There was
There was a central store, but it was closed on Saturdays and Sundays.
The Central Store. . .
. . .in my home town had less than two hundred square feet of sales floor.
The "town" had one house, a school, and a grain elevator.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
One horse?
Deviating slightly:
A village in Ireland is defined as 1 church + 1 pub + 1 school, No other buildings required.
I have seen one village only fulfilling those requirements.
Two Horses
What good is one horse? You need a good team to do anything worthwhile on a farm. I was five when we got rid of Dan and Ted -- our last horses. After that, all the harnesses were just toys for us kids.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Curiouser and curiouser...
"Well, in our country," said 'drea, still panting a little, "you'd generally get to somewhere else—if you read very fast for a long time, as we've been doing."
"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the reading you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must read at least twice as fast as that!"
The happy arrival of new writers to this site, coupled with a renewed group of current writers, has led to a choice a few of us seasoned-citizens has to make. At least for me, the happy dilemma is so many more stories being posted here daily.
I am endeavoring to keep up! As far as I can recall, with each story I've read I've included a 'kudo,' with an included effort to comment. WE ARE BLESSED as writers and readers to belong to a community that gives us so much support.
Love, Andrea Lena
The #1 reason?
“The #1 reason people don’t do what you want them to do, is they don’t know what you want them to do.”
I don’t know who first said so, or boiled the thought down to that essence, but I’d expect it applies here.
When I first found BC, I didn’t realize kudos was per-episode (i.e., Angharad is missing about 2000). Surely I’m not alone.
Check when you re-read a story
When re-reading your favorite stories, check each chapter if there is a kudos registered under your login name.
I used the pandemic lock-downs to re-read a lot of stories and make sure they all had a kudos registered. So when you are binge reading, please insure that your kudos are properly registered as noted on the updated kudos line.
Talkin' 'bout my generation...
One of the huge if not altogether annoying complaints from my (Boomer) Generation is that "Kids" today don't write in cursive, Well, maybe it's because nobody from MY GENERATION....taught them how. :)
Special bonus... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN5zw04WxCc
Love, Andrea Lena
How?
How do they write letters then?
Letters? What is that?
A telephone is a communication device not used for talking.
Misleading metric
The kudos to reads metric is not a realistic metric to measure acceptance!!
Comments generate a lot of additional reads. My guestimate is that around 50% of all reads are related to comments. Just by clicking on the “Add comment” link adds one read to the count, even if you do not add a comment after all. Every time you click on a “Recent comments” link on the front page left sidebar, you add a read to the story. Every time you open your story to check the comments or stats, you add a read to the story. Every time you respond to a comment you add a read to the story.
Every time you close your browser and then come back later you add a read to the story.
And due to the tendency of more and more applications moving towards a web-based interface, the stability of web-browsers becomes ever more important and a factor in the read statistics. I usually have between 10 and 15 browser windows open at the same time, and the tab count can easily reach several hundred. On BCTS alone I several dozen tabs open: for serials I am reading or re-reading, new stories I want to read, information in blogs I want to keep as reference, and so on. So every time my browser crashes or freezes up (mostly on multimedia content) and has to restore my tabs, the read count gets incremented. Sometimes that can account for up to 10 or more reads before I can actually finish a story and hit that “Kudos” button.
Then there is also the latency of the Internet that will fail the registration of a kudos. It is not uncommon for to have to hit the refresh or reload button (thus adding a read) before a kudos will be registered. And if you close a tab or click on a link before the kudos count is updated, that kudos is most likely not registered and counted.
Are You Sure...
...that clicking on your own story adds a view? I go into all my stories about a half dozen times a year from my "My Stories" page, and the Daily Hits column doesn't increase. (Easy to tell; it's usually zero. With six stories, two of them non-TG, since I first posted one in 2012, "random solo" sightings are few and far between, and I'm not going to get large numbers of readers clicking on other stories if they read -- or blunder into -- one.)
It's certainly true that comments produce additional hits on a story from readers returning to see them. (Or commenters looking for responses.) Many of Emma Anne Tate's stories get comments over several days; I think there was one chapter of Maximum Warp that I visited ten extra times to read them. (Yes, I gave it a kudos. I don't think there's anything of Emma's that I haven't. Overall, I give one on about 95% of the stories I read here. It's a little lower for contests because I read all the entries including those with authors or subjects I'd otherwise avoid.)
Eric
I will concede that point
As I have not yet published any story myself, I was not aware of that route of access. As well as the differentiated treatment route receives regarding the reads counter. So I concede that one point.
But I still stand by my assertion regarding the “normal” reader access through the front page and other access links in the sidebars and the story headers and footers.
If You Access "My Stories"
The vote counter on the right-hand side will tell you XXXXpeople have voted and if you voted will say "including you". That does not give an extra hit to the story and the vote counter only allows one vote per reader, so the value of a story cannot be inflated.
OK...
I've never kudosed my own stories -- didn't know one could, and don't see the point.
But I was talking about reads. They normally do inflate on revisiting -- but not in this case.
Eric
Kudos as a metric?
I'm going to leave a comment here which will probably make people mad which is why I seldom leave comments. Up until NOW, I've been using kudos as a metric of a story's success. I'll post a story and it recieves a lot of kudos, I think, oh people like this. Look at all the kudos! Now I learn that some people will leave a kudo even if they think the story is garbage. How does that help me write better stories? Here's a kudo kid, now go away. I would much rather get an honest negative comment, than a dishonest kudo. Maybe I'm wrong...I always associated a kudo to equal a like. So now what?
Melanie
A Kudos Is a Plus
If you were writing for money, your benchmark would be how many people would spend money buying your stories. If nobody paid any money then you would know that they didn't think your story was any good. I think kudos fulfills that same hole. Somebody likes your story.
Hmm
Book sales go a long way to cancel out occasional negativity from commenters/reviewers. Even Kindle Unlimited page views do: as ways of keeping score go, there’s no affirmation quite like money appearing in your bank account every month.
This ‘kudos’ business is rather like racking up air miles with Star Alliance: in principle, more is better... but you can’t actually do anything with ’em.
Sugar and Spiiice – TG Fiction by Bryony Marsh
Alright . . . .
I’m not gonna debate the merits of kudos — not, not, not! — but, damn. The Star Alliance? That was funny!
— Emma
Are You Kidding Me?
Melanie -
Your books outsell mine on Amazon by a factor of at least two to three to one.
People love your writing. How could you doubt that?
BTW I'm almost done with Pink Bear and will post a glowing comment.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Well...
I was responding earlier when the system crashed...
I wasn't talking about Amazon at all. Sales and reviews are a different metric. All I was suggesting was that if you kudo a story you think is a stinker, doesn't that devalue the kudo?
And thank you so much for enjoying Pink Bear.
Melanie
Well...
There are stories I don't manage to read to the end, or stories I don't understand what they are about. As a result - no kudos.
Fair Enough
If you don't like a story, can't finish it, then don't give a kudos. Nor would I expect anyone to kudos a story that they haven't started. That was not my point.
What annoys me is when I see a story with SAY, 500 hits and 20 kudos. It's the reader's finger that's not doing any walking. Surely a little appreciation is in order. It is FREE after all.
Kudos
Correct me if I am wrong but you have to be logged in to leave a Kudos. You don't have to be logged in to create a hit on a story.
Absolutely Correct
So you could cheat if you wished and log on to a story multiple times without finishing it, thus inflating the hit count, but you can only leave one kudos. No system is perfect, but you have to at least scroll down to the end to leave a kudos or a comment.
But are we to assume that most BC readers artificially inflate the hit count and neglect the kudos count? It's possible, I guess, but I know many readers, if only electronically, and I don't think it's likely. I have faith in my fellow women.
Hits
I always thought hits were not unique. Each time someone visits the page, the hit goes up. If some partially read a story and returned to continue it, that would be two hits.
Pretty sure that's right
Also, for longer stories, you may get registered as having more than one "hit" if the browser refreshes while you are reading. Again, I think. The good folks at Admin could probably say for sure.
They might not want to, though. ;-)
— Emma
Proportion as metric
That is exactly what I am referring to: The proportion of kudos to hits/reads.
In this example: “Only 4% of the reader thought that the story was average or better, and 96% of the readers hated the story.”
That is the wrong way of looking at it!
If you want to use kudos to reads, then you should divide the reads/hits by two for the reasons I explained in my long prior comment. That will give you a kudos rate of 8%. And if you want to factor out the readers who for one reason or the other did not read the story to the end, divide the reads by two again, which will get you a kudos rate of 16%. Hip, hip, hurray!!!!
How about you look at the statistics from a more positive perspective?
At least 20 people have read the story to the end and have appreciated my efforts at storytelling!
Interpreting Differently
Jessica,
That is not what I'm saying. Most of those who didn't add a kudos to the story didn't HATE it. They were indifferent, didn't care, were too lazy to give the little fist with its thumb up a tiny nudge. I'm trying to get readers to increase their show of appreciation for an author's blood, sweat and tears in bringing them some FREE entertainment. I happen to think that that is looking at things from a more positive perspective.
I'm sure that if you, or any author, got more "applause" you would be encouraged to write more. If the silence is deafening, you fold your tent and go do something else.
Here's How I Look It
A lot of people don't like Stephen King's novels, yet he's sold 300 to 400 million in book sales. Different strokes for different folks.
I read stories here looking for numerous qualities. There are several BC genres that are brutally hard for me to read. Yet, if an author can engage me so that I finish the story, they deserve a kudos.
Sometimes I absolutely hate a story for how the author concludes it, yet I appreciate the characterization or the overall plot.
I also think those authors who are writing their first or second story also deserve a kudos purely for the risk they've taken.
There are dozens of other reasons I give kudos. I can't think of a valid reason not to give one.
Most of the people in this community need all the love, understanding, and support they can get.
I would never say something in a comment I didn't mean. But for Heaven's sake why not give a kudo to an anonymous person on a website that has as its prime directive to be friendly.
You're one of the best writers on this site. Your story for this contest is no exception. Yet several hundred people read your entry in the contest and couldn't be bothered to leave a kudo. That's wrong.
Please keep writing and I'll keep buying and enjoying your books.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Perhaps
Is it time to phase out the kudos button? What purpose does it serve if less than 10% of the readers bother to click on it? It's one of those mysteries of the universe. There are very, very few stories on BC that I start and don't finish. If I read through to the end, whether I think the story is good or bad, it has held my attention and I give it a kudos. Oi vey! :DD TAF
DeeDee
Eep!
Keep the kudos!
Since folks without accounts can't leave one, what the 8-10% ratio of clicks to kudos shows is likely that there are a lot of readers out there who do not have accounts. I didn't have one for years either. And given how many of those readers are possibly in closets due to personal circumstances, I am happy they can read our stories without there being history other than in the browser which can be erased/hidden. No emails, no registrations that could be exposed by site hacks, they are able to read and enjoy without fear or worry. I fully support that, even while admittedly pouting on occasion at those numbers.
Are you sure about that?
I can leave a kudo whether or not I sign in; doesn't that mean you don't need an account to leave a kudo? Comments, I know, require the reader to create an account an be logged in, but I don't think that's true of kudos.
— Emma
Hmm
If you leave a kudo without signing in, but then sign in after...does it allow you to do another kudo? Or has it tracked you by some other means?
Maybe something to ask our gracious site owner and awesome staff...
I always figured there was some anti-kudo-self-spam mechanisms in place.
Double the kudos
You can leave a kudos without signing in, then leave another after signing in. Still doesn't help the abysmal numbers. :DD TAF
DeeDee
Kudos when not logged in
I know I've been able to add kudos when re-reading your stories on a phone & then realising that I wasn't logged in there, though I'd added one previously when logged in.
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